(upbeat music)
- Welcome to the Straight Truth Podcast,
I'm Josh Philpot your host.
As always, I'm joined by Richard Caldwell
the pastor of Founders Baptist Church.
Our guest today is Ken Ramey,
the pastor of Lakeside Bible Church.
In Christianity in the public square,
is often framed as this judgemental religion,
and that can be for good or for ill because
it depends on who's saying that Christians are judgemental
and who they might be referencing
when they speak about that.
I remember in college I heard that many times because
9/11 took place when I was in college, when I was
a sophomore in college.
And the response is the different Christians had to 9/11
framed the debate about whether or not Christians
are loving, or judgemental.
And a lot of the time you hear somebody say,
"doesn't the Bible say 'Thou shalt not judge'" using the
old King James English to say that "You should not Judge"
But then you have Christians judging certain behavior
or maybe certain public figures,
you might call that judging.
Or maybe within the church itself.
Somebody is no longer a member of the church because of
maybe things that they have done, you judge them
one way or another.
What are Christians supposed to do, Pastor, I mean,
should Christians be judgemental or does the bible
really say, "Thou shalt not judge"?
- Christians should not be judgemental and sometimes
Christians are judgemental, there's no denying that.
But judgementalism is when you take your
personal opinions, your own preferences, and you
oppose those views on others as if they are God's law.
That's judgementalism.
Judging is something entirely different.
We are called to judge.
We are called to make judgements in the Christian life.
The most famous passage you noted, most unbelievers,
perhaps is the only thing they know in the Bible
but they know this, Matthew seven verse one,
"Judge not, that you be not judged."
That's the verse you always hear.
And they don't read down below that statement
because the rest of the statement on the part of Christ
makes it clear that there is judgment necessary.
Verse two, "For with the judgment you pronounce
you will be judged, and with the measure you use it
will be measured to you.
Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye,
but do not notice that the log that is in your own eye?
Or how can you say to your brother, 'let me take the
speck out of your eye,' when there is the log in
your own eye?
You hypocrite, first take the log out of
your own eye, and then you will see clearly to
take the speck our of your brother's eye."
So, just even in that text, we aren't taught that
there's never a time I may need to help my brother
with something that he's not seeing correctly.
But I'm to examine myself first and making sure that
I'm seeing clearly.
But the next statement says this, "Do not give dogs
what is holy, and do not throw your pearls before pigs,
lest they trample them underfoot and run to attack you."
Now that calls for judgment, doesn't it?
How do I know who the dogs are?
How do I know who the pigs are?
I have to make some kind of judgment.
There are other passages we can bring in as well where
Jesus clearly taught us to judge, to make judgements.
Border judge righteously, which is to say we judge
according to the scriptures.
And if we're judging truly according to the scriptures,
it won't just be a matter of ideas, it's also going
to be a matter of attitude.
So sometimes people with use the Bible, but in an attitude
that's completely in disagreement with the scriptures
as a whole.
So, I am to make judgements, but with the scriptures
and I would make sure that my attitude matches the Gods
who gave those scriptures.
That my attitude is that which God would be pleased with.
Ken, what would you add to that?
- Well, I think that because we live in this age
of tolerance we are all to accept one another's opinions
and lifestyles, and for anyone to say that's wrong,
that sounds judgemental.
Who are you to judge me?
Well, I'm not judging you, God is judging you,
because what the Bible says.
The Bible makes it very clear what is right
and what is wrong, and there is black and white.
There is truth and error.
And so we have a responsibility as Christians
to be discerning.
The world would see it as being judgemental but
we are being discerning and we are speaking the truth.
Hopefully love, like you said, that our attitudes,
our actions, would not misrepresent the truth
of God's word and I think typically that's where we
as Christians go awry, is that it's not that
what we are saying is wrong, it's how we're saying it.
And we're making...
People can't get past our persona to hear the truth
that we are trying to communicate.
But I think as long as we are speaking the truth and love,
we have a biblical responsibility to confront sin,
and sinful choices and sinful lifestyles,
but to do it in a very gracious, Christ-like way.
- Is it loving to judge someone in a Christ-like way?
- Yes, I think sometimes it can spot-on.
Our tone can be really wrong
But I'm often confronted in the gospels with this idea,
If I said what Jesus just said...
Now obviously we are not Jesus right,
he's the sinless sun of God.
But if I said what Jesus just said,
the way that Jesus just said it,
people would conclude I was unloving.
Yet, here was the embodiment of perfect love,
saying hard things.
I mean, he referred to some as Vipers, hypocrites,
white-washed tombs.
I mean, Jesus used firm language in places.
So, I was recently reading an article in Tabletalk Magazine
and the writer said, "We are living in a time where people
are more concerned about the tone of what they say
than the truthfulness of what they say."
And I think that's true.
In other words, people will applaud someone
who speaks softly, when what they're saying
is absolutely error, and condemn someone who they think
is speaking sharply when the words need to be heard
and the words are truthful.
So, we need to be loving, but love can be straight forward,
love can be clear, love can pronounce God's
condemnation upon things that are justly condemned.
It's a matter of balance, it's a matter of being
scripture-saturated to get your attitude right
in the right places.
- It's not loving if somebody has a misguided notion
of their identity to say,
"Yeah you can be whatever you want to or you could..."
Whatever in our culture, what you mentioned,
that feels good, you can do it.
That's not loving of us to say, "Yes, you can."
It's actually un-loving to do that.
The loving thing, like what you said Ken,
is to address it with the scriptures and judge that
behavior, and test it against the scriptures.
- Let's use an analogy.
If someone visited a doctor and they had cancer,
and there was a way to treat the cancer,
but the doctor didn't want to make the person feel bad
by telling them they had cancer, no one would
consider that to be loving.
They would consider that to be malpractice.
(laughing) The person has cancer,
you have to tell them that, and tell them there's
a way to make it better.
Well, the same applies in this realm.
When we know someone is headed for an everlasting hell,
and we won't deliver the bad news that they're a sinner
who desperately needs the grace of God.
And we don't deliver the good news that there's
and answer for their sins, that's not loving someone,
that's spiritual malpractice.
We've got to tell the truth.
Just make sure we do it in love.
- I think about Galatians six one and it says,
"Brethren, if you see someone overtaken in a fall,
you who are spiritual, restore such a one with the spirit
of gentleness; looking to yourself,
bless you to be tempting."
And again, I think it's the attitude with which
we go about confronting that person,
restoring that person.
Getting them back on the right path of truth.
Obviously we do it gently, but I appreciate
that last phrase, "looking to yourself less
you to be tempted."
We recognize but for the grace of God that would be us.
And when you understand as Paul did,
he was the worst sinner, the chief sinner.
In other words, living with the mindset that you
are the worst sinner you know, there's a humility
that comes out and comes across when you're confronting
your people about their sin.
You're in a position where you have to do that.
You don't come across as judgemental because you're
recognizing that that could be me,
and so I'm not going to come down with this condescending
"how could you"...
"I would never do that"... attitude.
You know what, I may have not done it,
but I have thought it and I could easily do that.
but brother I love you, I care for you,
and how can I help you get out of this?
- It's scripture with scripture.
That is no doubt, that's the rule, right.
And yet, there has to be a place humility and graciousness
for sharp rebukes.
- [Ken] Yes.
- Because the scripture teaches that too.
I'm thinking about Titus now, first chapter,
talking about Cretans, who have the reputation
for being lazy and all the rest,
and Paul writes verse 13,
"This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply,
that they may be sound in the faith."
I mean, there is a time for sharp rebuke.
And I think about Paul's very strong words in Galatians,
About anyone who would distort the gospel,
let them be accursed.
At one point he states it even stronger than that, you know.
He wishes that they would emasculate themselves.
And I think about Paul's confrontation of Peter.
When he was playing the hypocrite with gentile believers.
So, there is a time and a place for strong action,
for strong words.
And so it's letting that balance occur where we understand
the situation we're in and what's called for,
but always with humility.
I just think sometimes we get confused about what humility
looks like or sounds like, and sometimes it can be strong.
- Well thanks for joining us for this episode
of the Straight Truth Podcast.
We've hope you've enjoyed it.
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Walking in Grace Ministries, which is the preaching
ministry of Pastor Richard Caldwell.
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