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And I might add as well; I've got other arguments. Right? I've got

other arguments like the moral argument, the argument from the applicability of

mathematics to the physical world, the Leibnizian cosmological argument, the

ontological argument. So there's a lot more than what was on display here this

evening.

Very briefly cuz there are others who want to ask.

Ok, so you have many arguments to fall back on.

(Unclear)

Supposing if you had a defeater for the Holy Spirit witness,

some natural explanation for example,

then how far would you go on faith alone?

Okay now see you're still asking your psychological question.

Then how far should you go on faith alone?

I think that given that the Holy Spirit does bear witness to the truth of the

Christian faith you should go all the way with the Holy Spirit. Alvin Plantinga

talks about an intrinsic defeater of defeaters. If you have a defeater of a

belief that you hold, in order for you to continue to rationally hold to that

belief you need a defeater of the defeater. Is that clear? If you hold to a

belief and somebody brings a defeater against it, to continue to believe that

rationally you need a defeater of the defeater. But what Alvin Plantinga

points out is that some beliefs may be so powerfully warranted that they are

intrinsic defeater defeaters. That is to say the warrant for the belief itself

is so powerful it intrinsically defeats any defeaters brought against it. And he

gives the example of a person who is accused of a crime that he didn't commit,

and that he knows he didn't commit, but against whom all the evidence lies so

that a jury of his peers going simply on the basis of the evidence ought to convict

him because all the evidence is against him.

And Plantinga says, "If that happens, am I obligated to believe that I did commit

the crime after all?" "Well," he said, "obviously not! My knowledge of my own

innocence is an intrinsic defeater defeater of the evidence that

has made it look as though I have committed the crime." And in the same way

I would say in my view, now this is my view, I would say that the witness of the

Holy Spirit is an intrinsic defeater defeater so that even in the face of

unanswered objections a person is rational and should continue to believe

in the Christian faith. And I think this gives tremendous encouragement and hope

to persecuted brethren who are living, for example in communist countries like

the former Soviet Union or North Korea who have no access to apologetic

materials or books or people in Islamic countries that are persecuted have no

access to Christian materials, these people managed to have a rational faith

simply because the Holy Spirit so powerfully warrants to them the truth of

the Christian faith that it intrinsically defeats the defeaters

that Marxist propagandists and Muslim clerics bring against them.